Thread: Commit emails to -committers
Greetings folks,
Having had reasonable success with using Reply-To on the -docs and -bugs
mailing lists to have replies go to the correct place while emails come
from the noreply@postgresql.org address, we (pginfra) are thinking of
starting to do the same for the automated emails to the -committers
list.
Specifically, we're contemplating something like:
From: Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org>
To: pgsql-committers@lists.postgresql.org
Reply-To: sfrost@snowman.net, pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org
being the structure of emails from the commit script.
This would:
- Allow SPF/DKIM/DMARC to all work and be happy, so we don't get email
from -committers being bounced back to us for looking fake.
- Automatically include the committer's email address on replies, as
happens today.
- Automatically have replies go to -hackers (and hopefully eliminate
moderation delays due to folks CC'ing -committers and -hackers)
If this ends up working well and we get to a point where the only emails
going to -committers are the actual commit messages then, we might make
it similar to how -announce is now, where only emails sent from the git
server are accepted and we bounce the rest, to reduce moderator load by
having fewer addresses that spammers can spam us through and which have
to be dealt with. We're not planning to do that right away though, more
a 'down the line' thought depending on how the above goes.
Thoughts? Concerns? Questions?
Thanks!
Stephen
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On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 03:25:09PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > Greetings folks, > > Having had reasonable success with using Reply-To on the -docs and -bugs > mailing lists to have replies go to the correct place while emails come > from the noreply@postgresql.org address, we (pginfra) are thinking of > starting to do the same for the automated emails to the -committers > list. > > Specifically, we're contemplating something like: > > From: Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> > To: pgsql-committers@lists.postgresql.org > Reply-To: sfrost@snowman.net, pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org > > being the structure of emails from the commit script. Agreed, makes sense. I am never sure if I should be sending replies to commit emails to hackers. -- Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us EDB https://enterprisedb.com If only the physical world exists, free will is an illusion.
On 2021-Aug-19, Stephen Frost wrote: > Having had reasonable success with using Reply-To on the -docs and -bugs > mailing lists to have replies go to the correct place while emails come > from the noreply@postgresql.org address, we (pginfra) are thinking of > starting to do the same for the automated emails to the -committers > list. > > Specifically, we're contemplating something like: > > From: Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> > To: pgsql-committers@lists.postgresql.org > Reply-To: sfrost@snowman.net, pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org > > being the structure of emails from the commit script. Overall this looks good to me. I especially like having the Reply-To: -hackers. One thing I don't like is the proposed From:. Setting things that way sometimes causes people's MUAs to record the given address to the person's name -- and I'm sure both parties would be upset if they sent email to Stephen Frost and it ended up delivered to noreply@postgresql.org. The pgsql-bugs and pgsql-docs forms both use some placeholder text: From: PG Bug reporting form <noreply@postgresql.org> From: PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org> So I suggest that the From should have some other text, not the unadorned person's name. It doesn't have to be something as impersonal as what we use for the forms; maybe we can just prefix it: From: Committer Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> or From: Committer Bot - on behalf of Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> Thanks -- Álvaro Herrera 39°49'30"S 73°17'W — https://www.EnterpriseDB.com/
Greetings, * Alvaro Herrera (alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org) wrote: > On 2021-Aug-19, Stephen Frost wrote: > > Having had reasonable success with using Reply-To on the -docs and -bugs > > mailing lists to have replies go to the correct place while emails come > > from the noreply@postgresql.org address, we (pginfra) are thinking of > > starting to do the same for the automated emails to the -committers > > list. > > > > Specifically, we're contemplating something like: > > > > From: Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> > > To: pgsql-committers@lists.postgresql.org > > Reply-To: sfrost@snowman.net, pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org > > > > being the structure of emails from the commit script. > > Overall this looks good to me. I especially like having the > Reply-To: -hackers. Cool. > One thing I don't like is the proposed From:. Setting things that way > sometimes causes people's MUAs to record the given address to the > person's name -- and I'm sure both parties would be upset if they sent > email to Stephen Frost and it ended up delivered to > noreply@postgresql.org. > > The pgsql-bugs and pgsql-docs forms both use some placeholder text: > From: PG Bug reporting form <noreply@postgresql.org> > From: PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org> > > So I suggest that the From should have some other text, not the > unadorned person's name. It doesn't have to be something as impersonal > as what we use for the forms; maybe we can just prefix it: > > From: Committer Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> > or > From: Committer Bot - on behalf of Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> Hm, sure, either of those sounds good to me. I'd be inclined a bit more towards the former so that it doesn't take up as much room. Hadn't thought about that as I don't let random emails modify my .mutt.aliases file. ;) Thanks! Stephen
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On 19.08.21 21:59, Stephen Frost wrote: >> One thing I don't like is the proposed From:. Setting things that way >> sometimes causes people's MUAs to record the given address to the >> person's name -- and I'm sure both parties would be upset if they sent >> email to Stephen Frost and it ended up delivered to >> noreply@postgresql.org. >> >> The pgsql-bugs and pgsql-docs forms both use some placeholder text: >> From: PG Bug reporting form <noreply@postgresql.org> >> From: PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org> >> >> So I suggest that the From should have some other text, not the >> unadorned person's name. It doesn't have to be something as impersonal >> as what we use for the forms; maybe we can just prefix it: >> >> From: Committer Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> >> or >> From: Committer Bot - on behalf of Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> > > Hm, sure, either of those sounds good to me. I'd be inclined a bit more > towards the former so that it doesn't take up as much room. I have gotten email from Stephen Frost <notifications@github.com> so it seems it's accepted in other parts to do it this way.
Peter Eisentraut <peter.eisentraut@enterprisedb.com> writes:
> On 19.08.21 21:59, Stephen Frost wrote:
>>> One thing I don't like is the proposed From:. Setting things that way
>>> sometimes causes people's MUAs to record the given address to the
>>> person's name -- and I'm sure both parties would be upset if they sent
>>> email to Stephen Frost and it ended up delivered to
>>> noreply@postgresql.org.
> I have gotten email from
> Stephen Frost <notifications@github.com>
> so it seems it's accepted in other parts to do it this way.
I wouldn't be surprised if Stephen is objecting precisely because of
unpleasant experience with that github "feature".
(My wife constantly complains about how Apple Mail will try to
auto-complete To: with random addresses it finds somewhere in her
mail folder, so I can believe there's a real issue there.)
regards, tom lane
On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3:30 PM Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote: > > Peter Eisentraut <peter.eisentraut@enterprisedb.com> writes: > > On 19.08.21 21:59, Stephen Frost wrote: > >>> One thing I don't like is the proposed From:. Setting things that way > >>> sometimes causes people's MUAs to record the given address to the > >>> person's name -- and I'm sure both parties would be upset if they sent > >>> email to Stephen Frost and it ended up delivered to > >>> noreply@postgresql.org. > > > I have gotten email from > > Stephen Frost <notifications@github.com> > > so it seems it's accepted in other parts to do it this way. > > I wouldn't be surprised if Stephen is objecting precisely because of > unpleasant experience with that github "feature". FWIW, Alvaro is the one who was doing the complaining... > (My wife constantly complains about how Apple Mail will try to > auto-complete To: with random addresses it finds somewhere in her > mail folder, so I can believe there's a real issue there.) Yeah, and gmail (being probably by far the most common client used) also auto-learns those things. For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all -- the name would of course go in the body. Another option we could go with would be to have the email sender be "Stephen Frost <sfrost@postgresql.org>", since we have by policy been giving all committers such an email address. We'd need to add the ability to do that mapping into the commit message script as it doesn't have it right now, but it would be doable. And of course, it would suddenly make it more important for committers to ensure that this forwarder or mailbox actually works. -- Magnus Hagander Me: https://www.hagander.net/ Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> writes:
> For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL
> commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all
> -- the name would of course go in the body.
That'd be OK with me.
> Another option we could go with would be to have the email sender be
> "Stephen Frost <sfrost@postgresql.org>", since we have by policy been
> giving all committers such an email address. We'd need to add the
> ability to do that mapping into the commit message script as it
> doesn't have it right now, but it would be doable. And of course, it
> would suddenly make it more important for committers to ensure that
> this forwarder or mailbox actually works.
FWIW, I've been bit-bucketing mail via tgl@postgresql.org for many
years, because it's all spam and I don't have any ability to filter
it based on the true source. I don't really want to have to start
treating that as a valid address.
regards, tom lane
> On 20 Aug 2021, at 15:56, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote: > > Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> writes: >> For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL >> commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all >> -- the name would of course go in the body. > > That'd be OK with me. +1, I think that’s the preferrable option. -- Daniel Gustafsson https://vmware.com/
Greetings, * Daniel Gustafsson (daniel@yesql.se) wrote: > > On 20 Aug 2021, at 15:56, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote: > > Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> writes: > >> For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL > >> commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all > >> -- the name would of course go in the body. > > > > That'd be OK with me. > > +1, I think that’s the preferrable option. I'm alright with that, but would want to have the committer somehow mentioned in the email somewhere or maybe in the subject..? Otherwise it's entirely unclear who the committer is without going to the actual git repo and that seems like a general reduction in usability. Thoughts? Thanks, Stephen
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Greetings, * Stephen Frost (sfrost@snowman.net) wrote: > * Daniel Gustafsson (daniel@yesql.se) wrote: > > > On 20 Aug 2021, at 15:56, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote: > > > Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> writes: > > >> For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL > > >> commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all > > >> -- the name would of course go in the body. > > > > > > That'd be OK with me. > > > > +1, I think that’s the preferrable option. > > I'm alright with that, but would want to have the committer somehow > mentioned in the email somewhere or maybe in the subject..? Otherwise > it's entirely unclear who the committer is without going to the actual > git repo and that seems like a general reduction in usability. ... and obviously I didn't read the complete comment above which says explicitly that it'd go in the body. :) Alright, I'm ok with that and seems like most other folks are too, so I'll see about actually making that happen. Thanks! Stephen
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On 2021-Aug-23, Stephen Frost wrote: > * Stephen Frost (sfrost@snowman.net) wrote: > > * Daniel Gustafsson (daniel@yesql.se) wrote: > > > > On 20 Aug 2021, at 15:56, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote: > > > > Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> writes: > > > >> For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL > > > >> commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all > > > >> -- the name would of course go in the body. > > > > > > > > That'd be OK with me. > > > > > > +1, I think that’s the preferrable option. > > > > I'm alright with that, but would want to have the committer somehow > > mentioned in the email somewhere or maybe in the subject..? Otherwise > > it's entirely unclear who the committer is without going to the actual > > git repo and that seems like a general reduction in usability. > > ... and obviously I didn't read the complete comment above which says > explicitly that it'd go in the body. :) Just for the record, I don't like that and I would prefer that the committer name appears as a trailing atom at the end of the From text, since that shouldn't cause any usability issues, judging from the user stories we know about. -- Álvaro Herrera Valdivia, Chile — https://www.EnterpriseDB.com/ "No hay ausente sin culpa ni presente sin disculpa" (Prov. francés)
Greetings, * Alvaro Herrera (alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org) wrote: > On 2021-Aug-23, Stephen Frost wrote: > > * Stephen Frost (sfrost@snowman.net) wrote: > > > * Daniel Gustafsson (daniel@yesql.se) wrote: > > > > > On 20 Aug 2021, at 15:56, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote: > > > > > Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> writes: > > > > >> For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL > > > > >> commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all > > > > >> -- the name would of course go in the body. > > > > > > > > > > That'd be OK with me. > > > > > > > > +1, I think that’s the preferrable option. > > > > > > I'm alright with that, but would want to have the committer somehow > > > mentioned in the email somewhere or maybe in the subject..? Otherwise > > > it's entirely unclear who the committer is without going to the actual > > > git repo and that seems like a general reduction in usability. > > > > ... and obviously I didn't read the complete comment above which says > > explicitly that it'd go in the body. :) > > Just for the record, I don't like that and I would prefer that the > committer name appears as a trailing atom at the end of the From text, > since that shouldn't cause any usability issues, judging from the user > stories we know about. Ok, if we know that to be the case then that's fine with me (and I'd generally prefer it myself though I'm not terribly picky). So then: From: Committer Stephen Frost <noreply(at)postgresql(dot)org> is what I'd suggest... Does anyone think that'd be an issue given the discussion? I'd be happy to help test out what ends up happening with $whomever's MUA that we think might be impacted. Thanks, Stephen
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Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> writes:
>>> Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> writes:
>>>> For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL
>>>> commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all
>>>> -- the name would of course go in the body.
> Just for the record, I don't like that and I would prefer that the
> committer name appears as a trailing atom at the end of the From text,
> since that shouldn't cause any usability issues, judging from the user
> stories we know about.
The complaints I've heard about have to do with autocomplete on the first
few characters, so I agree that that probably wouldn't trigger with
something like "Committed by Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org>".
Whether that's free of other usability issues is another story.
In my preferred email list display, much of the actual committer's
name would disappear thanks to the column length limit ... probably
not so much that I couldn't tell who was who, but other people might
have more trouble with that.
regards, tom lane
Greetings, * Tom Lane (tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote: > Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> writes: > >>> Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> writes: > >>>> For that reason I'd lean towards having something just be "PostgreSQL > >>>> commits <noreply@postgresql.org>" and not put the name in there at all > >>>> -- the name would of course go in the body. > > > Just for the record, I don't like that and I would prefer that the > > committer name appears as a trailing atom at the end of the From text, > > since that shouldn't cause any usability issues, judging from the user > > stories we know about. > > The complaints I've heard about have to do with autocomplete on the first > few characters, so I agree that that probably wouldn't trigger with > something like "Committed by Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org>". > Whether that's free of other usability issues is another story. > In my preferred email list display, much of the actual committer's > name would disappear thanks to the column length limit ... probably > not so much that I couldn't tell who was who, but other people might > have more trouble with that. We could possible use "C: Stephen Frost" instead..? How do folks feel about that? Thanks, Stephen
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Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net> writes:
> We could possible use "C: Stephen Frost" instead..? How do folks feel
> about that?
Nah ... it's not very readable and I have great faith in
autocorrectors being able to see past that.
regards, tom lane
Greetings, * Tom Lane (tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote: > Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net> writes: > > We could possible use "C: Stephen Frost" instead..? How do folks feel > > about that? > > Nah ... it's not very readable and I have great faith in > autocorrectors being able to see past that. Hah, alright, then it sounds like: From: Committer Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> Reply-To: sfrost@snowman.net, pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org is generally agreed to? Thanks! Stephen
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On 2021-Aug-24, Stephen Frost wrote: > Hah, alright, then it sounds like: > > From: Committer Stephen Frost <noreply@postgresql.org> > Reply-To: sfrost@snowman.net, pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org > > is generally agreed to? LGTM, let's try it and see! -- Álvaro Herrera PostgreSQL Developer — https://www.EnterpriseDB.com/